this is blog hq for nourishing obscurity and unherdable cats
Across The Ditch
5 replies on “Across The Ditch”
Of course the French invaded England. Apart from 1066 there was this:
“… King Philip’s son Louis, who in 1216 sailed to England with an army … Louis captured Winchester and soon controlled over half of the English kingdom. He was proclaimed “King of England” in London …”
Of course they were French. They spoke bloody French, didn’t they?
……
JH: How about this, gentlemen?
The Normans weren’t Vikings, according to the actual meaning of the word, once they settled down, but they weren’t French. When the Viking Northmen and other Northmen settled in Normandy, it was already populated, so as in England, there were a lot more indigenous people than Northmen, and at first there weren’t many Norse women, so there was a lot of intermarriage with the locals. The Norse learned to speak the local dialect, which was a form of French, but there were a lot of dialects in what is today France that weren’t always easily understandable by people who spoke other dialects. The Northmen gave babies to lots of the local women, gradually changing their genetic makeup, but they learned from the locals as well. However, the nobles retained a lot of their fighting heritage and pride in their ancestry.
If you start with King Henry II of England and work backwards, here’s what you find:
His mother, Empress Matilda, was the daughter of King Henry I and Matilda of Scotland. His father was from Anjou, as was his paternal grandfather, but his paternal grandmother was from Maine, near Normandy, and named Ermengarde, which doesn’t sound very French. (These were people descended from the Franks who came to France from what is today Germany or Belgium and took it over.) Henry I’s father was William the Conqueror, and his mother was Matilda of Flanders—not French. William’s mother was Herleva of Falaise. Falaise is in Normandy, but Herleva is not a good French name. His father was Robert the Magnificent, Duke of Normandy. Robert’s father was Richard the Good, Duke of Normandy, and his mother was Judith of Brittany. Judith is not a good French name, and her ancestors from Brittany may have been largely Celts. His father was Richard the Fearless, Duke of Normandy, and his mother was named Gunnor. Gunnor was born in Normandy, but may have been entirely Norse. The father of Richard the Fearless was William Longsword, Duke of Normandy. His mother was Sprota of Brittany. Again, Sprota is not a good French name, and she may also have had a lot of Celtic ancestry. William’s father was the famed Viking warrior Rollo, Duke of Normandy, definitely a Northman. William’s mother was Poppa of Bayeux, an indigenous woman, ancestry unknown.
There may have been soldiers with William the Conqueror who had no Nordic ancestry, but probably most were descended from Northmen on their fathers’ side, all the way back, even if they were half indigenous and spoke a French dialect (because that’s how they communicated with the people they ruled in Normandy). They probably tended to look down on the locals, most of whom they held in feudal bondage. Not all of these soldiers would become nobles, but a large proportion would have been given farms or manors to hold in the king’s name in England, along with peasants to do the work for them. Lots of these soldiers had children with local women, but among the nobles and more substantial gentry, there was a tendency to marry others with similar backgrounds as that became more and more possible.
You might as well argue that “the English” were Germans. Hell they didn’t even speak English yet, since that creole language didn’t exist, but a bunch of dialects of Insular West Germanic plus, presumably, Danish in the Danelaw.
English is a West Germanic language that originated from Ingvaeonic languages brought to Britain in the mid-5th to 7th centuries AD by Anglo-Saxon migrants from what is now northwest Germany, southern Denmark and the Netherlands. The Anglo-Saxons settled in the British Isles from the mid-5th century and came to dominate the bulk of southern Great Britain. Their language originated as a group of Ingvaeonic languages which were spoken by the settlers in England and southern and eastern Scotland in the early Middle Ages, displacing the Celtic languages, and, possibly, British Latin, that had previously been dominant.
Old English reflected the varied origins of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms established in different parts of Britain. The Late West Saxon dialect eventually became dominant. A significant subsequent influence upon the shaping of Old English came from contact with the North Germanic languages spoken by the Scandinavian Vikings who conquered and colonized parts of Britain during the 8th and 9th centuries, which led to much lexical borrowing and grammatical simplification. The Anglian dialects had a greater influence on Middle English.
After the Norman Conquest in 1066, Old English was replaced, for a time, by Anglo-Norman, also known as Anglo-Norman French, as the language of the upper classes. This is regarded as marking the end of the Old English or Anglo-Saxon era, as during this period the English language was heavily influenced by Anglo-Norman, developing into a phase known now as Middle English. The conquering Normans spoke a Romance langue d’oïl called Old Norman, which in Britain developed into Anglo-Norman. Many Norman and French loanwords entered the local language in this period, especially in vocabulary related to the church, the court system and the government.
As Normans are descendants of Vikings who invaded France, Norman French was influenced by Old Norse, and many Norse loanwords in English came directly from French. Middle English was spoken to the late 15th century. The system of orthography that was established during the Middle English period is largely still in use today. Later changes in pronunciation, combined with the adoption of various foreign spellings, mean that the spelling of modern English words appears highly irregular – Wiki
Of course the French invaded England. Apart from 1066 there was this:
“… King Philip’s son Louis, who in 1216 sailed to England with an army … Louis captured Winchester and soon controlled over half of the English kingdom. He was proclaimed “King of England” in London …”
……
JH: Ta.
The Normans weren’t French, neither were the papal funded mercenaries allied to the Duke of Normandy. Try again.
……
JH: Ta too.
Of course they were French. They spoke bloody French, didn’t they?
……
JH: How about this, gentlemen?
The Normans weren’t Vikings, according to the actual meaning of the word, once they settled down, but they weren’t French. When the Viking Northmen and other Northmen settled in Normandy, it was already populated, so as in England, there were a lot more indigenous people than Northmen, and at first there weren’t many Norse women, so there was a lot of intermarriage with the locals. The Norse learned to speak the local dialect, which was a form of French, but there were a lot of dialects in what is today France that weren’t always easily understandable by people who spoke other dialects. The Northmen gave babies to lots of the local women, gradually changing their genetic makeup, but they learned from the locals as well. However, the nobles retained a lot of their fighting heritage and pride in their ancestry.
If you start with King Henry II of England and work backwards, here’s what you find:
His mother, Empress Matilda, was the daughter of King Henry I and Matilda of Scotland. His father was from Anjou, as was his paternal grandfather, but his paternal grandmother was from Maine, near Normandy, and named Ermengarde, which doesn’t sound very French. (These were people descended from the Franks who came to France from what is today Germany or Belgium and took it over.) Henry I’s father was William the Conqueror, and his mother was Matilda of Flanders—not French. William’s mother was Herleva of Falaise. Falaise is in Normandy, but Herleva is not a good French name. His father was Robert the Magnificent, Duke of Normandy. Robert’s father was Richard the Good, Duke of Normandy, and his mother was Judith of Brittany. Judith is not a good French name, and her ancestors from Brittany may have been largely Celts. His father was Richard the Fearless, Duke of Normandy, and his mother was named Gunnor. Gunnor was born in Normandy, but may have been entirely Norse. The father of Richard the Fearless was William Longsword, Duke of Normandy. His mother was Sprota of Brittany. Again, Sprota is not a good French name, and she may also have had a lot of Celtic ancestry. William’s father was the famed Viking warrior Rollo, Duke of Normandy, definitely a Northman. William’s mother was Poppa of Bayeux, an indigenous woman, ancestry unknown.
There may have been soldiers with William the Conqueror who had no Nordic ancestry, but probably most were descended from Northmen on their fathers’ side, all the way back, even if they were half indigenous and spoke a French dialect (because that’s how they communicated with the people they ruled in Normandy). They probably tended to look down on the locals, most of whom they held in feudal bondage. Not all of these soldiers would become nobles, but a large proportion would have been given farms or manors to hold in the king’s name in England, along with peasants to do the work for them. Lots of these soldiers had children with local women, but among the nobles and more substantial gentry, there was a tendency to marry others with similar backgrounds as that became more and more possible.
You might as well argue that “the English” were Germans. Hell they didn’t even speak English yet, since that creole language didn’t exist, but a bunch of dialects of Insular West Germanic plus, presumably, Danish in the Danelaw.
Where does one start with that rant?
English is a West Germanic language that originated from Ingvaeonic languages brought to Britain in the mid-5th to 7th centuries AD by Anglo-Saxon migrants from what is now northwest Germany, southern Denmark and the Netherlands. The Anglo-Saxons settled in the British Isles from the mid-5th century and came to dominate the bulk of southern Great Britain. Their language originated as a group of Ingvaeonic languages which were spoken by the settlers in England and southern and eastern Scotland in the early Middle Ages, displacing the Celtic languages, and, possibly, British Latin, that had previously been dominant.
Old English reflected the varied origins of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms established in different parts of Britain. The Late West Saxon dialect eventually became dominant. A significant subsequent influence upon the shaping of Old English came from contact with the North Germanic languages spoken by the Scandinavian Vikings who conquered and colonized parts of Britain during the 8th and 9th centuries, which led to much lexical borrowing and grammatical simplification. The Anglian dialects had a greater influence on Middle English.
After the Norman Conquest in 1066, Old English was replaced, for a time, by Anglo-Norman, also known as Anglo-Norman French, as the language of the upper classes. This is regarded as marking the end of the Old English or Anglo-Saxon era, as during this period the English language was heavily influenced by Anglo-Norman, developing into a phase known now as Middle English. The conquering Normans spoke a Romance langue d’oïl called Old Norman, which in Britain developed into Anglo-Norman. Many Norman and French loanwords entered the local language in this period, especially in vocabulary related to the church, the court system and the government.
As Normans are descendants of Vikings who invaded France, Norman French was influenced by Old Norse, and many Norse loanwords in English came directly from French. Middle English was spoken to the late 15th century. The system of orthography that was established during the Middle English period is largely still in use today. Later changes in pronunciation, combined with the adoption of various foreign spellings, mean that the spelling of modern English words appears highly irregular – Wiki